From Fox News:
Former major league pitcher Roger Clemens is under indictment, accused of lying to Congress about using steroids.
Clemens faces charges of obstruction of Congress, making false statements and perjury.
Well, I predicted it. I’ve been saying for years that Clemens’ career looked to me like a classic case of steroid abuse. Of course I could be wrong, but I have very little doubt that Clemens used steroids for pretty much the latter half of his career, a part of his career where he won three or four Cy Young awards.
I’ve never liked Clemens, so my opinion is probably biased. But I was pretty clear from the day of his testimony that I expected a perjury charge to be brought against him.
What do you do about his stats if he is convicted? From a purely selfish perspective I have to admit that I am happy that Greg Maddux ended up one win ahead of Clemens, so he’s higher in the record books than Clemens, doped or non-doped.
Personally I think Clemens probably won 50 or so games directly as a result of his steroid use. Maybe more. There should be no “debate” about whether Maddux or Clemens was the “better pitcher.” The only reason such a debate ever existed was because Clemens is a cheater.
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Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackClemens likely won in the neighborhood of 100 games due to this use of steroids (and almost certainly HGH). I base this on the last 5 years of his career which, likely, he simply would not have had, plus another 40 or so he wouldn’t have won over the years since he would have been either injured or wasn’t as good as he is while juiced.
I’m still waiting for someone to come forward on Nolan Ryan…it just doesn’t happen that you get better after 40 like that…
“…it just doesn’t happen that you get better after age 40 like that…”
Um… Brett Favre…?
Favre is a cyborg…the nextlev in cheating.
Don’t start with the Favre.
Decision making ain’t the same as a 98 mile an hour fast ball. (Of course having one of the best backs in the league (albeit butter-fingered) and some great receivers (and a more than solid defense) doesn’t hurt…)
One member of the ultimate team game vs. a pitcher in the most solitary “team game” there is. Not even close comparison.
I was actually using Favre as a counter-example, since I don’t believe he uses any performance enhancing drugs. However, I think a football quarterback and a baseball pitcher are quite comparable in terms of their importance and their athletic demands. There’s a reason so many NFL quarterbacks were pitchers on their college baseball teams. Throwing a football 60 yards on a frozen rope is quite comparable to throwing a 90 mph fastball, imho. Except quarterbacks do it while running away from 320 pound freaks of nature.
Favre throws perhaps 10 – 20 “pitches” like that per SEASON. Clemens threw 40 or so every 5 days. (And, when you add up practice time, the difference is even more glaring.)
I agree that Favre is an anomaly (one which goes far beyond his arm strength), but ALL Clemens did was throw the ball. 80 to 120 times every five days over the course of a 162 game season. Favre might throw the ball 30 times a game, sixteen times a year (not counting post-season).
I don’t know if Favre takes anything. Football is riddled with players using them, and, frankly, I believe the counter-strategies used by them is far superior to that used by those in baseball simply because the culture is more sophisticated. (Much as the case with cycling and track & field, the use of PED’s in football has been around a loooooooooooonnnnnnnggggg time, and they know how to game the system.)
Nah, I’m not gonna give you “10 – 20″ per season. My guess is Favre throws ten of those in practice each week. Yes, that’s still not 50 per week which Clemens might have thrown, but then again, Clemens isn’t making those throws while being chased around by huge hulking linemen who’s greatest desire is to plant his head in the dirt. That means that Favre throws off the wrong foot, leaning in the wrong direction and falling to the ground. That’s gotta wear on a guy at least as much as a practiced and grooved windup and pitch throne five times more.
The trouble is there is no definitive way to determine how many “wins” could be attributed to PED use.
How many HR’s more could be the result of PED use? Its bat speed, location of the ball on the bat, not power that means more for generating home runs. Power might give more bat speed through being able to overcome the mass of the bat, but strength alone does not increase speed. PED use may actually cause reduction of speed for power.
Some pitchers have “reinvented” themselves over the course of their career. Pitching more effectively, having better command, playing with better defensive teams, using pitch selection better due to better game calling by the catcher.
I have no doubt that PED use helps any player, given the prolific use that it has had. I think the greater portion of benefit comes in recovery time.
The case against Clemens isn’t a surprise, but I’m not convinced it is a strong one. It might be strong enough, but it all depends on those who can be brought in to testify. Pettitte obviously is one, and that will hurt him some. The syringe wouldn’t be admissible, as it could have been tampered with and there is no chain of custody.
The government has had a hard time putting the case against Bonds together, and they have evidence (apparently) from Balco that is more damning than anything we’ve heard about the case against Clemens.
I don’t particularly like Clemens. I agree that he does seem to be very likely a PED user. However, I just don’t think there is a big case against him. If he is not found guilty, then what? He never failed a drug test, and while that is not proof of innocence it makes it that much harder to prove guilt. Perjury is hard to prove as it is. Its why they bring multiple counts against people, with the hope that at least one will stick. Clemens has 6.
We’ve just seen the poor case of Blago, who had something like 21 counts against him, and him being found guilty of only 1. So far anyway.
Funny, how the talking heads were first saying the only way they would believe Clemens is if he sued and fought this all the way. He did, and is still convicted by the media.
I’m always amazed at guys like Clemens. For the love of Mike, just plead the 5th. Walk out of there, go your own way, and live the rest of your life with your millions.
Clemens would always live under a cloud of suspicion anyway, even if he was totally innocent.
Stupid! Arrogant! But, they just can’t shut up and go away.
Clemens, like McGwire, like Bonds all believe that the PED’s didn’t enhance their performance, but (correctly) believe that an admission to using them will likely mean that they won’t get into the Hall.
CC: If you’re going to go “practice!” then baseball pitchers throw about three hours every day. In a longer season. Playing real games more frequently (approximately 3 in a 15 day period (without any “bye”) as compared to approximately 2 in that same time.
I’ll accept that there’s a comparison. Both throw things at high speed. It’s just that a major league pitcher does essentially nothing but that, more frequently per game, has more games per season, and puts more torque on his shoulder than does a QB. (I wasn’t being fair. Clemens threw around 80-100 pitches per outing and they ALL were at “full speed.” The difference between a slider, change-up, and fastball isn’t arm speed, it’s grip. On the other hand, a QB doesn’t torque his shoulder differently to throw a “slider” or throw a 5 yard pass as hard as he throws a 60 yard pass.)
You can compare them. I will too to the extent that they both throw things — but that’s as far as I’ll go.
You’ll have to go farther than that.
In the context of how a PED can affect a QB vs a pitcher there are a lot more things to take into account than just how hard someone throws the ball.
While I will grant you that an NFL QB likely puts less overall stress on their arm/shoulder than a MLB pitcher just from the throwing motion alone, NFL QBs have a lot more to deal with outside of just the throwing motion that are affected by steroids and human growth hormone.
According to the journal of sports medicine, since 1980 77% of quarterback injuries occur on passing plays. The most common injury, by a small margin, is a head injury (most likely led by concussions, I suspect). Just behind that is a shoulder injury, then an arm injury, so shoulder and arm injuries combined are the most common injury sustained by quarterbacks in the NFL. 75% or so of all QB injuries are caused by direct trauma, with the rest due to strain of athletic activity (most common non-trauma injury in QBs is tendonitis of the shoulder or arm, with rotator cuffs being third I think).
How would PEDs help with such injuries? Three ways:
1. Being bigger, stronger and faster makes it more likely that a QB will avoid the trauma of a direct hit.
2. The faster healing that these drugs allow mean fewer days on the disabled list and more time behind center.
3. Increased practice time that these drugs allow means more muscle memory which improves their accuracy.
My initial comment comparing a single throw of a football to a single throw of a baseball is too simplistic. The overall impact of PEDs on a quarterback is at least comparable to the overall impact of PEDs on a pitcher. For a pitcher it may be more about avoiding ligament tears and torn muscles, but that is balanced by the QB avoiding more sacks, or being less vulnerable when he is sacked.
In that sense comparing Brett Favre and Roger Clemens is, in my opinon, perfectly reasonable.
Again, I have no idea if Brett Favre is a cheater. My understanding of the clinical effects of steroids at least is that Roger Clemens is practically a poster boy for the symptoms of steroid abuse, much as Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco were. Brett Favre is not nearly as obvious an example of steroid abuse.
I don’t know enough about the clinical effects of HGH to make a comparison.
But, I am quite certain that if an NFL QB did cheat the way I believe Roger Clemens cheated, it would have a similar impact on physical ability, play time and games won overall.
The Indictment Of Roger Clemens.
Roger wants his day in court.
Yours,
Wince
He saw how the government’s case against Bonds has collapsed. Perjury is very difficult to prove.
Two possibilities:
1. Roger Clemens is an unfairly accused innocent man.
2. Roger Clemens is a cheater who is gambling on the government’s inability to prove perjury in court.
I would put the odds at about 20-1 in favor of #2.
But that’s just me.
And, as I have pointed out before, while it may be a nice platitude to say we are supposed to presume innocence until proven guilty, that is actually only a requirement for the Law. I am free to presume guilt or innocence on any pretext, and I do so freely. I try to be clear and say that it is “my opinion” as much as possible, so that I don’t claim to be presenting Roger’s use of PEDs as “fact”, but I feel no more compunction to say “I can’t judge because I wasn’t there” any more than I do in the case of OJ Simpson, Bill Clinton or any other public case.
I am quite willing to form and state my opinion.
In my opinion, Roger Clemens is a cheater and is now trying to cheat the system because he believes it is virtually impossible to prove perjury if you have enough money to buy the best legal defense possible.
And he will probably end up being right.
The trouble with labeling any PED user with cheating is that there is no era in baseball that doesn’t have “cheaters” in the HOF.
Is it any less cheating when a batter corks the bat? How about altering the ball by cutting it, sanding it, loading it up with gunk? How about use of pine tar? How about how most players today shave the handle portion of the bats beyond the specifications in the rules which leads to more broken bats?
In the subject of drugs, greenies were used like candy throughout the game. They kept jars of them in the clubhouses.
If a large portion of the opposition are using PEDs then while it is “cheating” it can also be used as a means of helping to level the playing field.
How about Coor’s Stadium putting the balls in a humidor? It alters the ball and its not strictly monitored, so it could easily be used as a means of keeping the larger portion of drier balls being used by the away team pitcher to aid harder hits. I remember watching some games played at Coor’s and it sounded like they were hitting the ball with wet newspapers. This is not to say that this practice IS done there, but the potential for doing so is there.
The other issue is that minor changes to the baseball has dramatically affected the game. Raise the stitching and it creates more ball movement, tighter winds and the ball travels further. This was done in the 90′s to help aid HR balls.
I do not believe that Clemens played the game clean. I do have a problem with him never having been caught and McNamee – the drug pusher – being given immunity for nailing the users. Its ass backwards work by the government to punish let the criminal go to get the user because they have the famous name.
McNamee is slime. He was a dishonored dirty cop turned drug dealer. Clemens is slimy also, but he had incredible talent that entertained a lot of people through the course of his career. If the government is going after “famous” people who abused PED’s why not Arnold or Stalone? Both were known to have used PEDs to enhance their bodies which made them millions. How is it all that different from a sports figure?
Goat, most people don’t question Clemens veracity because of McNamee’s testimony, most people question Clemens because of Andy Pettitte’s testimony.
The humidor in Coors field is controlled by the umpires, who control which balls are delivered to pitchers home and away. If there is cheating going on with the humidor, it would have to be the umpires doing the cheating.
Minor changes to equipment aren’t cheating if they are within the rules and fairly applied. Yes, I consider corking bats or sanding balls to be cheating on a slightly lower level than PEDs. I consider PEDs to be a “worse” form of cheating because of the potential health problems it causes for young kids who believe they have to do it too, and end up with heart, joint or nerve problems.
And no I’m not going to change my naive and simplistic notion that it’s still cheating even if everyone is doing it.
I don’t believe I’ve ever come to the defense of Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone for anything they’ve been accused of doing, from using PEDs to groping women or abusing fellow actors.
However, I am one of those who happens to believe in redemption at some level, and that’s why I have somewhat more respect for Andy Pettitte than I do for Roger Clemens.
But my biggest gripe with the steroid era is that there has never been the slightest hint of PED use by Greg Maddux, and Greg’s career was doubly hurt by PED use, first by making him face batters who were cheating, which had to have had a significant impact on his win/loss ratio and stats like his ERA, and second because his opponents (most notably one Roger Clemens) who challenged his dominance as the game’s greatest pitcher of his era have all been identified as PED users. And that just boils my butt. My guess is that in a drug-free game Maddux would have won 375 games or more, would have had half a run lower on his ERA and would have been the unchallenged dominant pitcher of his era and recognized as one of the top five pitchers in baseball history.
Cosmic, I’ve gotta agree with you. Mad Dog was definitely the greatest of our era. And possibly in the top two of all time. Even for the occasional watcher like myself, it was always a treat to watch the guy.
What he accomplished is really astounding when you take out the PED element. And, pretty dang impressive even with it. The game owes him a lot.
The trouble is that there had been no proof of Clemens use either. For pete’s sake, Byrd was using HGH, which came out just before the playoffs. Byrd wasn’t all that great in the grand scheme, his stuff wasn’t over powering. How can you say with absolutely certainty that Maddux never used? While I agree it seems unlikely, that just doesn’t wash for me.
With the manner in which pitchers are used there is no way that Maddux would ever have gotten to that pipe dream level of 375 wins. That is a fan’s hope but not reality.
What about Mariano Rivera, he faced plenty of PED using players, are you trying to say he would have even more saves and a lower ERA career-wise than he has?
I am sure that PED use had its affect, so did doctoring balls. How is it any less fair if a batter has a lower BA because he faced a lot of pitchers who doctored the balls and had them doing unusual movement? (Maddux had been one of those who its whispered about for doctoring balls, btw.)
How about DiMaggio, his 56 game hitting streak might have been longer had he not been facing spit ball pitchers and ball doctors, as he did end up going on another 16-17 hitting streak the day after he went 0-fer.
How do you put a qualifier on the cheating? Brushing off making changes to the balls as not as bad as using PED’s then using the “for the children” as the reason for it is extremely weak.
Do you know that many steroids have no long term ill affects on those who use them? Are you aware that the age of the user has the bigger influence in the damage they can do?
There are players already in the HOF who have used and cheated in the game.
The larger determining factor in this PED issue is the personality of those involved and how well the media, and therefore the fans, view them.
Goat, those are all excellent points. As a kid I was a big fan of Gaylord Perry. At the time I was naively unaware that he was accused of being a spitball thrower. Since then I have had to re-evaluate his career, and I no longer hold him in as high esteem.
There may have been “whispers” about Maddux doctoring balls, but I have never heard those given any degree of credibility. The far more common complaint about Maddux was that he and his favorite catcher were granted too much of the “outside corner” compared to his peers. That is true, by the way. I am a huge Maddux fan, but he pitched against the Rockies enough that even I would have to be blind not to see his pitches called “strikes” two to three inches off the plate.
If you are comparing the impact of PED use on Madduxes career with prior “cheating” then that would seem to suggest you believe that cheating has had a generally equivalent impact throughout baseball history, and that PED use is just another type of cheating that didn’t add to the overall cheating level over time. My answer to that is “let’s look at the statistics.” Doing that shows the huge impact PED use had on the record books compared to “traditional” cheating, which indicates to me that PED use was either far more widespread than other forms of cheating, or that it was far more effective than other forms of cheating, or (and this is what I believe) it was BOTH.
Finally, it is a truism that “do it for the children” is one of the most common tactics of the charlatan, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t nevertheless sometimes true.
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